Alaska Adventure 55 Ways: An interview with co-authors John Wolfe Jr. and Rebecca Wolfe

I recently had the pleasure of speaking with John Wolfe Jr. and Rebecca Wolfe, co-authors of Alaska Adventure 55 Ways. John is the son of Helen D. Nienhueser, who wrote the original 55 Ways to the Wilderness in Southcentral Alaska, and he joined as co-author on the fourth and fifth editions. Rebecca is John’s daughter.

Together, John and Rebecca share a rich family legacy of exploring and appreciating the Alaskan wilderness. During our chat we touched on everything from what it was like to grow up with such a family legacy of outdoor life, their advice for new hikers, and how they coordinated their research and writing efforts.

Keep reading for the interview. You can also catch John and Rebecca at the upcoming events listed below; follow them on Instagram and Facebook; and of course, visit their website for an updated list of author events, where you’ll find a list of places to buy Alaska Adventure 55 Ways.

• June 8, 2022, 5:30-7pm: Slides, discussion, and book signing at Title Wave Books.
• June 19, 2022, 12:30pm until..?: Book signing and chat at the Kobuk.
• June 22, 6pm: Slides, discussion, and book signing at Alaska Mountaineering and Hiking.
• Listen to their May 14, 2022 interview on Outdoor Explorer any time you like

Alaska Adventure 55 Ways: A chat with John Wolfe Jr. and Rebecca Wolfe

Editor’s note: Helen D. Nienhueser, author of the first edition of 55 Ways to the Wilderness in Southcentral Alaska, penned a bracing foreword for Alaska Adventure 55 Ways. It begins:

“It gives me great pleasure that my son and granddaughter are the coauthors of this new incarnation of 55 Ways, thus continuing what has become a family project for more than fifty years.” 

With that in mind, it made sense to begin our chat by asking John and Rebecca what it was like to grow up with that family legacy of appreciation for, and engagement with, the outdoors. And was that affected in any way by working on the book?

Rebecca: You can start that one, Papa. That’s a little chronological. 

John: I’ve been going into the outdoors since before I can remember, and lived at a homestead in Eagle River Valley when I was born. That place is still in our family, and still special. I said a bit about it in the preface to the book. 

So yeah, my parents were active in the outdoors, active in the mountaineering club of Alaska. My stepfather climbed Denali right about the same time that I was first meeting him. I was just a little kid, but he was a mountaineer at that point. And there is this circle of people who were fun to be around. From the mountaineering club mostly, I guess. Our family did stuff with those people at remote cabins, camping and hiking. 

I think it was a little bit different when I was a small kid, because there were homesteader and mining roads, but the idea of hiking as a recreational pursuit wasn’t strong in the culture and there weren’t a great deal of parks and trails. You know, Chugach State Park didn’t exist when I was little. [It] came into being just about the time that the first edition of the book came out. So anyway, all of that definitely influenced me. And I really like getting out of doors and being out on the trails or non-trails in the mountains, or in cabins, or whatever. 

All of that is great and has influenced my interest in the book of course, but also in starting the Alaska Huts Association, because cabins were important. And in raising our kids, we just sort of passed it on. 

My mom is is a very strong person… if she decided she wants to go do a trip every weekend, she’s going to do a trip every weekend. And we did a lot of that kind of thing. I don’t think I’m as strong as she is in in that way, but I think we did pretty well at getting our kids out, and passing on that that legacy of appreciating the outdoors. 

Becca: Relating to grandma being really strong and getting outside… the reason why my dad is leaving immediately tomorrow, and why I fly into Alaska on Thursday and immediately leave town, is because Grandma said, “Everyone better be at the cabin. It’s my birthday this weekend!” So everyone’s going out to to spend time in the cabin for the weekend. 

But anyway, I think kind of similarly to my dad. I think I’ve been going outside in Alaska since before I can remember. There were editions of the previous incarnation of 55 Ways that came out in 1994 when I was two, and in 2002 when I was ten. We did a lot of recon trips as a family that I remember, and then also with friends. [It] was always fun to have other friends along. 

I think that my understanding of how important that is, and how formative that was, has really changed a lot over the last couple of years. Just in writing the book, realizing… wow, this is a really important thing that we do as a family. It just seemed really natural to me, but it’s not true of every family. And then also during the pandemic…

I’ve been in California during the pandemic, and my understanding of the culture down here has been that because a lot of trails are busy with people all the time, they closed trails and didn’t allow people to be outdoors. Because of not wanting a lot of people in one place. Whereas in Alaska, my understanding has been, the way people have stayed sane is to be outside during the pandemic. So yeah, it gives me a greater appreciation for the outdoors culture in Alaska. 

Lisa: With a book like Alaska Adventure 55 Ways, you’re opening the door for others to experience the same sort of outdoor exploration and stewardship that you grew up with. What’s it like to open that door? What choices do you make, and how do you balance welcoming people in versus giving them appropriate cautions or guide-rails for behavior? Things like not trashing the outdoors, or not getting themselves injured, or lost, or worse?

John: I think it’s a balancing act for sure, as you probably know from your own guidebook work. You know that if you’re putting it in the book… I don’t even know what my mom knew at the beginning because it was maybe not clear, but it’s quite clear now, 50 years on, that routes that appeared in 55 Ways are now trails and are popular. And maybe there’s a trailhead where there wasn’t one.

I think that the original book brought people out, and that’s a great thing. But it is a balancing act, because you get your Flattop [trail] being eroded out [from lots of foot traffic] and other trails now are being formalized because of erosion. And as long as there is budget to do that, it’s great. But you know, it seems like our state parks budget is always strapped. 

I think that the book maybe has morphed a little bit, in that it can help steer people a little bit. We have this term, “trailheadiquette.” We put in it because there’s a fair amount of emphasis on stewardship of the backcountry, but stewardship of the trailhead turns out to be really important, too, and not making enemies of neighbors who live near trailheads. So we put that in this book.

In general, I think that stewardship of the land, and creating a guide to help people get out onto the land and learn to enjoy it, and therefore love it, and therefore want to protect it, has always been a motivation. So the balance is, there’s that, and there are now some places attracting so many people that things are getting worn in. [Places] where the land may be protected as a park, but it’s not protected as a physical entity as well as it should be.

Anyway, using the book and a fair amount of introductory material to talk about how best to do things, and to have little reminders scattered throughout the text of various hikes, is important for sure. 

Becca: Yeah. You said stewardship. I think my grandma, for sure, identifies strongly as a conservationist, and that’s been passed down through the generations. I do think that it is definitely a balancing act; it’s a tricky thing to to do well. 

But I think part of our goal in writing the book, or in re-upping the book for the new generation, is about not gatekeeping the outdoors. Making sure that the same information is available in bookstores and libraries for everyone, so that it’s not just word of mouth like “I heard of this little cool trail up to this little lake.” 

Of course there are many of those, too. But we tried to put stuff in the book that we think are great destinations that people need guidance [for], and then also some classics that everyone’s going to go to. On those we really emphasize being careful where you park, picking up after your dog, and things like that. I do think that part of what we’re trying to do is guide you to be respectful of others and the environment, and not just guide you to “turn here.”

Lisa: I like that. And if I can say, one of the earlier editions of 55 Ways is actually what got me into hiking, because I didn’t grow up in a very outdoorsy family. So I can say that it worked well for me… the parts of the book that were meant to guide one into how to interact with the outdoors, plus a healthy smattering of trial and error and mistakes that, happily, didn’t have too-negative consequences. So I see a lot of value in that, for sure.

Would you like to talk about the mechanics of writing the book? I know what it’s like to be one person writing a guidebook, but what is it like doing it as a team? Do you both write drafts of each hike and then have a cage match to see which version wins? How do you manage the logistics and the mechanics of gathering the information?

John: I want to say, first, that one of the great things for me has been being able to do a real project, with real work, with my daughter and to find — not that I didn’t already know this — but, you know, just to see it really prove that she’s super-competent and smart and has way better ideas than I do and whatnot, and brings a contemporary perspective that I don’t have. 

I think it was probably that way for my mom, too. I remember being opinionated when I was first sitting down with my mom, and it seemed like she just sort of went with some stuff that I said, even though she’d already been doing this book for 20-some years at that point. So it’s been great working with Becca.

In terms of the mechanics and whatnot, we split up the writing of each of the trips. Several of the trips we’ve both been on together, but we split up who was writing them, and then we read each other’s stuff and tried to be as much of one voice as we could. And it was pretty smooth.

You probably know that there are a bunch of steps after you send everything in. That’s just sort of the beginning. There’s all this stuff that comes back to you to edit on a deadline, and maps to fret about and photos to select. It’s lots and lots of steps. But I don’t think we had any major hiccups. I was happy with that, and it probably helped a little bit for Becca that I had done some of it before.

Editor’s note: John was co-author of the fourth and fifth editions of 55 Ways to the Wilderness in Southcentral Alaska with his mother, Helen D. Nienhueser. 

John: We keep joking about how here we are, using CalTopo and Strava and whatnot this time around, and in previous editions it was a little physical map wheel rolling around on a physical paper map. I just saw that map wheel the other day in my mom’s desk drawer. I was like, “It still exists!” 

Lisa: This piques my curiosity. I know about distance-measuring wheels that you would take with you as you walk. Are you saying a map wheel on a paper map? Is that a way to draw neater lines, or is that a way of measuring the distances in very, very tiny miniature?

John: Measuring the distances. And as I recall, it’s just this size, and has a dial. There’s a tiny little wheel next to it, and you drive the little tiny wheel over [the map]. The dial has different map scales, different standard map scales on it. Then whichever map you’re using, it’ll tell you how many miles it is at that scale. 

Becca: Really quickly, another thing that I appreciate related to the map wheel is… the family file of USGS maps is really hilarious to me, because I’ve used USGS maps for navigation, but I am much more the Strava generation. But the USGS maps are really impressive and they’ve got multiple iterations of 55 Ways drawn over them and notes from the last edition and… I don’t know. It’s hilarious and ridiculous, and I have very good set of documents.

Anyway… about writing together. I think it’s interesting and fun to write with your dad as a coworker rather than just your dad, you know. But also maybe not as good because I mean, I have to be professional around [my coworkers] all the time. But when it’s my dad, I’m just like, “Argh!” Tear out my hair visibly. I think maybe it’s helpful that we’re genetically related because we have some similar, detail-oriented tendencies and we have kind of similar ways of working, so that’s helpful. 

We’re both lucky that my dad had just retired, and I have a pretty flexible day job schedule. So I was able to be up in Alaska doing a bunch of hiking for the book. Then we happened to just hit some of the Mountaineers Books schedule stuff well with my trips to Alaska, so we were doing galleys together and we were doing the final run-through and cover stuff over Christmas last year. There’ve been all these work sessions at home with my parents and getting to do stuff together. This has been great.

I also think it’s been interesting because we did split up the trips, but we co-wrote the introduction and preface and all of that kind of non-trips stuff, and that was really fun to try to meld our ideas. Especially the preface. There was a lot of back and forth and many, many iterations of that, because that [part is] more about philosophy. We had to know our different ideas about what this book is about, and how are we trying to meld our generational ideas? And then what are we on the same page about? 

Lisa: As you were comparing notes and working together on the text, did you ever find that the two of you had very different experiences? For example, did you have moments where you sat down and one person felt a trail was really easy and the other felt it was really hard, and you had to work it out?

Becca: That’s a good question, actually. Do you want to start that answer, Papa? 

John: Well, I would say mostly that it seemed really smooth and we didn’t have… we weren’t at loggerheads about things. First we had to come up with how we were going to explain trail difficulty, which we did in a little different way than we had in the previous book. So we discussed that kind of thing and, you know, I think relatively easily ironed out differences of opinion.

We had lists of words that would describe the trail that we could choose from and for the most part, I think once we had our system in place, it was pretty smooth. So I don’t think that we had real differences. Becca, do you have a different perspective on that?

Becca: [to John] I think maybe what you said is just the answer.

[to Lisa] You’re asking about whether we had clashes on subjective questions, but I think we set up a difficulty rating system that made it as objective as possible. We chose to say… this is the distance and elevation gain and the surface that you’re walking on, rather than saying this is a four-out-of-five difficulty.

That made it a lot easier for us to quantify. We never sat down and [I] said, no, I think this is a four, and he said, no, I think this is a three. Yeah. So I hope that answers your question. I don’t feel like we have a very straightforward answer for this one. 

Lisa: No, no, that’s a wonderful answer. And just to clarify, I’m not looking for the salacious story of the family feuds that developed while writing the book. But with having two brains looking at the same information, it just strikes me that there might be times where the two perspectives are a little different and you have to sort it out. 

Becca: Well, I think part of the answer to that question is that I grew up hiking with my dad; we hike together often. So I think we have a similar idea of what’s a “difficult” hike and what’s an “easy” hike. Whereas if I just meet up with a friend, we might have very different ideas of that.

I think we intentionally tried to come up with a different way of defining how difficult a hike is, because we didn’t want to just have it be based on our own abilities. [We wanted to] recognize that different people have different abilities and perspectives on what makes a hike difficult, and try to be as objective as possible in the way we describe it.

Lisa: Was there a particular method that the two of you used to decide which trails would be in the book or not? Especially which modes of travel would make it in or not?

Becca: John was the mastermind of the trip list, I think. We definitely put our heads together, but I think you should run with that one, Papa.

John: Well, I don’t know that there was a very scientific method, but there was a bit of method to looking at what had been in the previous book — over the several iterations of the earlier book. But also looked at it between… Mountaineers Books had published your day hiking book, and so there were a bunch of trips that were in there, and we wanted to be complimentary but not repetitious of those, and wanted to kind of have our own spin. 

So part of it was thinking, what has made our book different or special in a way? And part of it was that it always was, instead of being 50 Hikes in… or 100 Hikes in…, which were series that the Mountaineers Books had for a number of decades, this one was Ways.

I’d need to clarify with my mom, but I think that the Ways came from… there were boat trips, there were canoe trips, there were cross-country skiing trips and there were off-trail trips, and there was some day hiking and there was some long backpacking. So we tried to capitalize on that and then, specifically, tried to add in things that [have] changed over time.

Fat-tiring biking wasn’t a thing… in fact in the early days of the book, mountain biking wasn’t a thing. Those things have been incorporated over time. For this round, there’s Nordic skating and crust skate-skiing and fat-biking as ways to deal with Southcentral Alaska’s sometimes fickle winters, and pick the best mode for the time, or for the weather.

In terms of specific trips,= there were some old favorites, but maybe a different look at it. I use Flattop as an example. There was the original Flattop route from Glen Alps, and then there’s this new Sunnyside trail which isn’t so new anymore. We could put either of those in, but there’s also that whole ridge. We ended up trying to focus more on traverses and loops, so we described a trip following the entire ridge back to the pass of Ptarmigan Peak, and then looping back in either valley to either trailhead.

So Flattop Mountain doesn’t appear in the book as a trip per se, but it’s in there because it’s a piece of this bigger loop. We tried to do that a bunch… particularly around Anchorage, I think. We sort of combined and created these traverses and loops, and that seemed a way to also differentiate the book.

Becca: You answered that question great, but part of trying to be complimentary to day-hiking books like yours, or trying to make it more about traverses and loops… part of our thinking on that was, we also want to make sure that we don’t intimidate people that might not be to that point in their outdoors adventure career yet. We made sure that most trips have a shorter options paragraph at the end that gives you the simpler day hikes, or shorter ways to get outside.

Also, there’s a trips-at-a-glance table. We were really intentional to have a “shorter options” column [in that table]. I actually think that was something that Mountaineers wasn’t sure if we needed, and we were like, “This is important to us that it’s not all long adventures, that people have quicker ways to get out too.” 

Lisa: I’m really glad you guys advocated for that. That was actually one of the things that I scribbled down as I was flipping through the book — how much I liked that table in the front. It looked like there’d been intentional additions that go well beyond the norm.

That “shorter” column was one of them, and the different modes of travel, and I really liked the [lists of] nearby summits too, because then if people want to keep going up a nearby peak and sort of figure out how to get there, they can. So from one reader, I say that is absolutely brilliant.

Speaking of not intimidating people, how did you decide which of the longer trails were okay to include or not? I’m thinking specifically of the Tutka Back Door trail, which I was really excited to see in there. I’ve never been on it myself, but I know it’s not a trip that every person is going to be set up to undertake. What was the process to decide which of those trips to include?

Becca: That’s a good question. The Tutka Back Door trail is actually a great poster child for where we drew the line. The Tutka Back Door trail can be a really long traverse to the outer coast of the Kenai Peninsula that requires a float plane to drop you off, and one of our major criteria was that you shouldn’t have to have a plane drop-off to a glacier in the middle of the Wrangells, or whatever. It’s trying to be an every-person’s guidebook, and we don’t want to have that kind of monetary investment be necessary to [get] outside. 

For Tutka Back Door we wrote it up as a trip where you still need a water taxi, but you just [hike] from Tutka Bay to the pass and back, so that doesn’t deliver you all the way to the outer coast where you need a float plane to get back. We definitely mention that you could keep going, and that you could book the float plane, but we’re trying to make sure that it’s not unduly difficult to get out. 

I guess the most we compromise on that is in Kachemak Bay, [where] we include trips that require a water taxi. But there’s a lot of awesome stuff [there] that requires a water taxi, so I think that’s worth it.

Lisa: Anything you want to add to that, John?

John: Well, in general, we tried not to do any technical trips. I think that we were toying with parts of the Bomber Traverse. I do think we mention it… same thing, we sort of mention that it’s there but it’s in the background, and that’s because there are glacier crossings and, you know, we’re just being cautious about that. Generally, we’re drawing the line at scrambling. 

You might have to use your hands in a few places, but we’re not doing technical hikes or climbs as it were. They’re generally meant to be trips that regular people… there’s a wide range of regular people, but [trips] that regular people can do without undue outlay of cash or a high level of skills. 

Lisa: That makes perfect sense, and it goes back to what I think you said earlier Becca, about making sure information is out there in libraries, and out there in print where people can get at it. Given what you mentioned about trying to make the book an every-person’s guidebook, is there any advice either of you might have? Any suggestions or recommendations for someone who sees Alaska Adventure 55 Ways on the shelf and goes “Oh, I’d like to get [out] to adventure somehow. How do I do this?” 

What advice might you give them for laying the groundwork for the type of long-lived and fulfilling relationship with the outdoors that both of you obviously have? 

John: I’d say, if it’s somebody who’s starting and doesn’t have a great deal of background in walking, hiking, mountain biking, skiing, or whatever, go easy and keep it fun so that it remains fun. And then if you like it, you know what to expect from yourself and from the weather and a certain grade or whatever. Then you know you have some experience, and then you can extend. 

Starting off with Tutka Back Door trail, where it’s very remote, might not be the best first choice. But working in that direction, because it’s a beautiful place to go? By all means. Keep it out there as a thing to dream about. You know, one thing about this book that is different from the original 55 Ways to the Wilderness is all this color: Color photos and color maps, and it makes it a little easier to dream of trips, I think, that you might work up to and take someday.

Becca: Yeah, I would say that my advice is something like… I heard this somewhere and I don’t have a good person to attribute it to, but… trying to demystify hiking in your head. I think hiking gets built up as “Ooh, you’re going hiking or backpacking, it’s this big scary thing,” but it’s just walking in the woods, or walking in the tundra. Set yourself some baby step goals that you’ll work yourself up to, whatever your goal is.

And the goal doesn’t have to be crazy. I know for some people spending a night in a tent is a big goal, or for a lot of people just being outdoors alone is really intimidating. I really enjoy backpacking alone; it’s super-rewarding. So yeah, set yourself some kind of goal that feels tricky to you, and that’s your own personal thing to conquer and you don’t have to compare to anyone else.

John: And that might include, if you’re a parent with small children, figuring out how to take them along. Same thing: starting small and building into it. That’s how it worked with me with my mom, and Becca with us.

Lisa: Do you have any [other] advice for parents who want to get their kids outside and have it be an experience that makes the children want to come back for more? As opposed to being a family story that will be told over Thanksgiving dinner… about the disastrous adventure that went horribly wrong and was never repeated? 

Becca: I don’t have kids myself, but I do have really good memories of being “forced” to go on hikes, and the part that I remember being hard was just the getting in the car part. I don’t ever remember having a bad experience actually out on a hike. That’s my no-longer-a-child, but most recent related experience. But Papa’s got more.

John: We did include a little section on hiking with children. I think the general idea is to make it fun, bring friends along if you can… and again, start small and build into it. As far as I can tell, going up a steep thing is not a problem for a kid. It’s going too long. Whether it’s too long on a flat or too long up steep may not matter a great deal. And then just… variety. 

We cite the canoe trips as great for variety because [you’re] on the water for a while and then walking for a while on a portage, and just being able to play in the water and the mud are all great things for kids. So those are the main things: Trying to keep it fun in whichever way works best for a particular family, for you and your kids.

Becca: I was a Trailside Discovery Camp counselor, and actually so were my parents, back in the day. I do think that, from that experience, there’s no necessary destination if you’re going on a trip with kids.

There were hikes we did with eight- and nine-year-olds, out of Glen Alps or up at Hatcher Pass, where it was a “hike less than a mile and set up camp” type of situation. And then kids are playing around, they’re falling in the mud and they’re making a mess, and you get to clean it all up when you get back home. It’s not a destination, it’s an experience. 

Lisa: I would humbly submit that there doesn’t need to be a specific destination for grown-ups, either.

Becca: That’s true! 

Lisa: Not disputing the advice at all, but I’d like to be included in that!

John: And you can!

Lisa: Speaking of which, I have visual aids. [waving books around] The new 55 Ways, and here’s the most recent old one, I think the fifth edition? It took me until this morning before I realized that the title is actually a little different on the new one. I know that nothing in the book world happens by accident, so I wonder if there’s anything you might want to say regarding the change in title, and the thinking behind that?

John: We had a little angst about the title because, you know, we were used to the 55 Ways to the Wilderness in Southcentral Alaska title, which nobody ever says in full because it is kind of a mouthful. We just say 55 Ways, or the 55 Ways guidebook, or whatever. 55 Ways to the Wilderness, maybe. People [hardly ever] say 55 Ways to the Wilderness in Southcentral Alaska. 

I think that was part of the… basically, the publisher suggested that there be a new title to go along with the reimagined book that was no longer part of a series. So they were interested in it, and then it was a matter of coming up with something. We felt pretty strongly that “55 Ways” was the brand or whatever you would call it. That’s what was recognizable, and we needed to keep that in.

And then there was a fair amount of hilarity, actually, in trying to come up with how to incorporate “55 Ways” and have it be new and different. Including joking about… Becca’s going to do this better than I am, but “55 ways to to camp without snakes,” or whatever. 

Becca: We had such a long list of serious titles first. We were just poring over titles, titles, titles. Every possible permutation. And then my boyfriend kind of got sick of it, and he started texting “50 ways to sleep knowing there aren’t snakes around” and “50 ways to hike near Canada” and just every other possible true fact about the book. Anyway, it was a really a process, but I think Mountaineers advocated for simplifying the title, and we advocated for 55 Ways being the important part, that that’s how it’s known colloquially in Alaska, which I don’t think they were really aware of, necessarily. 

The two… the publishing brain and us, [the] on-the-ground brains, really made something that works. And I’m also really glad to hear that you didn’t necessarily notice the change right away or it didn’t confuse you. So hopefully that’s true of most people.

Lisa: It was a combination of the names, especially John, since you were on the other book. But more than anything, it was that “55 Ways.” My brain just automatically filled in the rest, like you said, because that’s the colloquial reference for it. 

Lisa: Where can people find you online?

Becca: Our website is 55waysalaska.com. That’s the best way to get hold of us. We do have some kind of fun things on there. We have some free trips; try out a trip, go hiking. And we also have Avenza maps. Maybe you want to talk a little bit about Avenza, Papa.

John: Yeah. We’ve been working with Dorn Van Dommelen, the geography professor at UAA, and he was interested in trying this experiment. So he built some maps for us that you can zoom in on [with] your phone or whatever. The idea is that if you get the Avenza app, you can download this map for free.

And then the little blue dot that is connected to the GPS function in your phone will tell you where you are… whether you’re on the trail or not, or if you stray off of it. You can download the map and then take it with you and even if there’s no cell service, it will tell you if you’re on the trail or not. 

Then we included some notes that are more or less taken from the book, but in abbreviated form, for some particular spots… either be sure to take a turn here, or be sure to make noise in the brush here because you don’t want to surprise the wildlife, or there’s a great view opening up behind you, to turn around and look at it. Plus the trip data of elevation, trip length, difficulty. 

We tried to put it all into one map. It’s an experiment, and we’re looking for feedback from people who try it. Speaking of feedback, we [also] have a page on [the website] that you might be seeing, “55 ways to nap in the wilderness,” where we’re looking for people to help us fill out a bunch of photos of napping in cool places. 

Lisa: I love that. And that makes me think of what you were saying, Becca, about your partner offering alternative book titles. 

Becca: Exactly, that’s a good point. 

Lisa: Is there anything else that you wish people knew? I realize that’s like asking why is the sky blue, so let me narrow it down a little bit. Is there anything that you wish people knew that maybe they wouldn’t normally hear or be exposed to? In regard to guidebooks, or anything we talked about today?

John: Well, one thing that springs to mind is that Becca, in particular, did a good job of steering us into thinking about Indigenous land. So that’s a new thing in this book, to note and acknowledge Indigenous land for each trip and then in more detail in the beginning in the front matter.

I think that was really important for us, and I think we hope that it’s important for other people, as they start exploring different parts of Southcentral Alaska, to think about the people who were here before those of us of other cultures arrived, and who are still here and living on and loving the land here. I think this is an important acknowledgment. [It] was important to us, and I think it’s good for everybody to think about that. 

Becca: Yeah, I’m glad you said that, Papa. My answer, more directly to your question [about] things you wish people knew: I’m going to say I wish more people knew that Southcentral Alaska is Dena’ina land and Ahtna land and Sugpiaq or Alutiiq land. So that’s my answer to that question. 

Editor’s note: If you haven’t been to the Alaska Native Heritage Center, or if you haven’t been lately, you should go. It’s an amazing place to learn more about Alaska Native culture, traditions, and arts, including the Dena’ina, Ahtna, and Sugpiaq or Alutiiq peoples.

Lisa: It’s a fantastic answer and a fantastic addition to the book, too. I definitely noticed that, and I really liked [how] in the intro material… for lack of a better way to put it, I think you teased apart what all too easily becomes a snarled knot of reactiveness or emotion when people start considering the idea that, yes, colonization is a thing and it’s happened and it’s a part of reality.

There’s a tendency, I think, for things to sort of slam shut because of that. I think both of you did a nice job of teasing apart the snarl and laying things out in a way that, hopefully, people can hear it. 

Becca: Yeah, well, I would also say that, our ability to… like you’re saying, teasing apart that snarl… was definitely thanks to the help of Indigenous leaders like Melissa Shaginoff, a local artist, activist, and curator whose work informed our perspective on Indigenous land acknowledgment. We definitely used her resources and scholarship on that. I don’t think we would have done that half as well without her help. 

Editor’s note: The interview ended here, but you can engage directly with John and Rebecca through their author events linked above, through their social media accounts (also linked above), and their website — and don’t forget to grab the book, too.